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't -- he shouldn't be mirandaized right away. i know you agree with them. >> i think the miranda issue is an easier issue. he doesn't have to be mar lindaized for a lot of reason. first of all, they have enough evidence to convict him without getting a confession from him. all miranda gets you is a confession you can use in court. you can use that information for everything else. remember, he confessed already to the guy they kidnapped. the guy he kidnapped says, these two guys told us, we did the bombing. they got great witness and they got a great confession. maybe even better than a law enforcement confession where you can claim it was forced out of you. they gave a upon takenious confession -- spontaneous confession. >> bob wants to get in here. so then why did they need to make that statement? i'm trying to figure out why they made that statement? >> i don't know exactly why they made it. maybe because they got so much criticism -- remember the christmas morning bomber that they mirandaized right away, lost the opportunity to get information from him? so i think maybe they were pl
, everyone grows with racle-gro. >>> there was no miranda warning given. that they were claiming a public safety exception. could we get an explanation for that. >> there is a public safety exemption in cases of national security and charges involving acts of terrorism and so the government has that opportunity right now, though i believe that the suspect has been taken to a hospital. >> you heard it right there. no miranda rights were read to the suspect here last night. a justice department official says the bombing suspect won't be read the miranda rights because of a public saflt exception. so what is the next judicial step? let's ask the executive director of the american center for law and justice. good morning. i think a lot of folks are not familiar with this public safety exemption. why invoke that at this time? >> usually it's rare, it would be an instance where there is a gun or some kind of in this situation, unexploded bombs. it's important for people to understand, this is not the most extreme move. what you get from this is very limited interrogation and on top of that, it
, this investigation still very much continuing. justice departments saying the suspect will not be read his miranda rights. they are invoking the public safety exception. it's allowed in cases of immediate danger. meanwhile mccain and lindsay graham said dzhokhar tsarnaev should be treated as a potential enemy combatant. they said now that the suspect is in custody is the last thing we should want is for him to remain silent. under a law of war we can hold the suspect to a enemy combatment not entitled to miranda warnings or the appointment of counsel. the older brother, he was killed on friday, and they investigated him at the request of a foreign government, and they did not find any ties to terrorism. and we are joined from london by a counterterrorism expert, and mike sullivan here is a former acting director of the bureau of tobacco, firearms and explosives. let's start with you in london, will. the fbi talked to this man in 2011. it does beg the question, did they miss something when they talked to tamerlan tsarnaev? >> well, it's always very difficult to say. however, having said that, if yo
understand if he is indeed conscious and does survive before reading him miranda rights; is that correct? >> i believe molly line will be talking about that a little bit as well. there is a loophole. there is a way they don't have to. so he was not read his miranda rights to allow to ask questions of him. we don't know if questions have been asked. they may have asked questions of him when he was under the situation he was in, of course being pretty seriously injured. they do believe he is going to make it. that was something, not only important for them to do that because that is what we do in this society but important because of this investigation. last night we were told he was being brought here for treatment. we weren't too far behind the ambulance. as you made your way through boston, you could see many of the businesses reopened. you saw restaurants and bars reopened. at one point there was a small college and 500 students had gone into the streets and blocked off all four lanes cheering, holding signs and as first responders and medical teams came through that had nothing to do
given all that's transpired over the last week. >> he was not read his miranda rights which a lot of people are talking about today. explain the reason why. >> well, in the law there's what they have called a public safety exception to miranda. everybody knows what miranda is. you have the right to remain silent. anything you say can and will be used against you. the police don't have to say that to you if they are in hot pursuit of something relating to public safety. maybe worried about bombs in this case. they're worried about another plot or something else happening. so under those circumstances authorities do not have to give the miranda warning immediately to a suspect. a lot of people out there saying on the right that they ought not give miranda rights or any other kinds of rights to people who are deemed terrorists. people on the left saying you ought to use the regular court to try to try these individuals. this is an ongoing debate about the law in this country. >> let's talk about the penalty that the younger suspect may face. we're still waiting for charges to be file
over dzhokhar is to read him his miranda rights, what are you hear something. >> >> reporter: that is right. he was not red his miranda rights. they used a rarely used public safety, but they should not have invoked that because he no longer threatens an attack to society and he should get an attorney as soon as possible before he is interrogated. >> thank you. >>> federal law enforcements are weighing in on the rights and the status of the accused boston bomber, should he be treated as a criminal or enemy combaton with no rights? >> you have the high value interrogation group. they are skilled. they know how to do this. the miranda right can be read at a later time. >> four lawmakers including congressman pete king of new york believe he should be tkes eug nateed as a poe term enemy combaton. a conviction is likely so he is more interested in intelligence the suspect can offer. >>> thousands of runners at the london marathon paid tribute today to pay tribute to those killed and injured. they observed 30 seconds of silence before the start of each group of racers. many wore
will question him without reading him his miranda rights. we're getting a look at the suspect this morning, a video of tsarnaev, taken during a 2009 wrestling tournament. he's the one wearing the black wrestling uniform there. >>> also, a congressional aide is telling the "boston globe" oversight committees are seeking intelligence or the lack thereof leading up to the boston marathon bombing. for more on the investigation i'm joined by nbc news national investigative correspondent michael isikoff. a good sunday morning to you, mi michael. what are we hearing about the time line when tsarnaev may be charged and the charges he is facing? >> reporter: well, we could see charges against tsarnaev as early as today. i know that federal prosecutors are were preparing them yesterday. actually, we've been told they might come late yesterday afternoon or even last night. they didn't. so it's possible we may now see them this morning. now what that would consist of is not an actual indictment but a criminal complaint backed up by an affidavit most likely from an fbi agent that should have addition a
can he be questioned before the public safety runs out, most say 48 hours. once under miranda he is under no obligation to cooperate with authorities. >> remember the number one goal right here is to get inside his head and get whatever intelligence he has with any operatives in the united states to protect the homeland and protect americans inside the united states. >> reporter: speaking this morning on fox news, former u.s. attorney general alberto gonzales suggested being mirandized will not necessarily close off the flow of information from tsnaraev. >> we have something we can give him which is his life. for example, taking the death penalty off the i believe at that. there is possible some kind of deal would be made where he provides information and in exchange for that the government gives him some kind of a plea agreement. >> reporter: gonzalez suspects what may be happening now is in the obama administration is a quote, interagency scrum where some are pushing for a quick mirandizing. others may be advocating a delay so as much information as possible can be garnered, ma
decided not to read the suspect his miranda warnings and rights. what advantage does that give them now? >> as it was being discussed last night, he is still entitled to his miranda rights. what it means any information they collected before giving that warning cannot be used in court against him. but they probably have a ton of data already. they probably don't need a confession, and they don't need questions that lead to evidence for the prosecution, because they have the video evidence and they have forensic evidence, and i am sure they have dna evidence now because there has been blood and a fight. so they are more interested in trying to get information for him to identify whether there are any more accomplices or relationships to foreigners. >> is there anybody else out there? >> of course, that's question number one. and for the information gathering they are doing now is totally separate from the case they will be making in court. >> they are trying to piece together not just the last few days but in some cases the last year, or more than a last year, and one of the questions is
. officers did not read him his miranda rights. they invoked a rarely used public safety exception. the case started thursday night when his older brother tamerlan died after a firefight with police. then officers spent friday going door to door in watertown looking for johar. pictures from a night vision camera show he was hiding in a boat stored in a backyard. after a second shootout, tsarnaev gave himself up and medics rushed him to the hospital. doctors here at boston's beth israel are treating the suspect for serious injuries. cbs news has learned he is suffering from leg and neck wounds and could have bled to death if he hadn't been found in time. authorities are still in watertown collecting evidence. residents are glad it's all over. >> it's surreal finding yourself in a war zone. >> reporter: a memorial for the victims is growing in downtown boston. 11-year-old catherine left this note. >> i meant it with my heart when i wrote it and i really hope boston gets better. >> reporter: many say they are glad life can get back to normal finally. now, one of the latest statements we have go
suspect as enemy combat tant. remember, he wasn't read his miranda rights. what would it mean? and why is it important? the constitutional attorney will weigh in on this when we come back. morning, brian! loveour passat! um. listen, gary. i bought the lt one. nice try. says right here you can get one for $199 a month. you can't believe the lame-stream media, gary. they're all gone. maybe i'll get one. [ male announcer ] now everyone's going to want one. you can't have the same car as me, gary! i'm gett' one. nope! [ male announcer ] volkswagen springtoberfest is here and there's no better time to get a passat. that's the power of german engineering. right now lease one of four volkswagen models for under $200 a month. visit vwdealer.com today. the battle of bataan, 1942. [ all ] fort benning, georgia, in 1999. [ male announcer ] usaa auto insurance is often handed down from generation to generation because it offers a superior level of protection and because usaa's commitment to serve the military, veterans, and their families is without equal. begin your legacy. get an auto-insurance
not get his miranda rights. >> among of group of republicans calling for the boston bombing suspect to be considered an enemy combatant. that means he would not have the same constitutional protection as a regular citizen, with regard to what he says as the investigation moves forward. will this happen? california congressman, a senior member of the intelligence committee. congressman, always good to see you. i know that you disagree with the congressman and think that the suspect is in custody. is entitled to his miranda rights. why? >> well, i think the administration is handling it exactly correct. there is a public safety exception under the miranda allowing law enforcement to interview him, making sure there are no other bombs, threats, perpetrators still out there giving the law enforcement flexibility to do the that prior to miranda and i think the court will interpret it broadly and give them the time they need to make sure that the public is safe. after that, he will have to be mirandized, doesn't mean the end of cooperation, but no basis yet to conclude they should be trea
shouldn't be mirandaized right away. i know you agree with them. >> i think the miranda issue is an easier issue. he doesn't have to be mar lindaized for a lot of reason. first of all, they have enough evidence to convict him without getting a confession from him. all miranda gets you is a confession you can use in court. you can use that information for everything else. remember, he confessed already to the guy they kidnapped. the guy he kidnapped says, these two guys told us, we did the bombing. they got great witness and they got a great confession. maybe even better than a law enforcement confession where you can claim it was forced out of you. they gave a upon takenious confession -- spontaneous confession. >> bob wants to get in here. so then why did they need to make that statement? i'm trying to figure out why they made that statement? >> i don't know exactly why they made it. maybe because they got so much criticism -- remember the christmas morning bomber that they mirandaized right away, lost the opportunity to get information from him? so i think maybe they were playing defense
and lucid enough to get his miranda rights read to him, also thoughts he shot himself through the neck, that's been really brought into question now, as an eyewitness there to help take him down, looks like a cut or maybe something exploded, a shrapnel cut, those that the boston marathon, those that suffered during the explosion. he said i'm motivated by religion, that religion being islamic extremism or islam. he went on to say i have no outside ties. i'm not part of a larger group. isn't that convenient. >>steve: both brothers went to a mosque in cambridge. it was the older brother. clearly the younger brother was following the older brother in life in so many different ways. we told you a little bit yesterday about some of the outbursts the older brother had at the mosque in cambridge. for instance, back in november where they were talking about it was okay for muslims to celebrate american holidays like thanksgiving and the 4th of july and tamerlan, the older brother, stood up and argued. then in january there was a praise for martin luther king jr. and he got up and called someone a hyp
's before he gets the miranda rights. the fact that he can't speak right now, does that push back that window of time because they're not getting anything from him? >> that's a good question that i won't speculate on without a legal background. i'll leave that one up to the master pete williams. but i can imagine there's got to be some sort of gray area there that some lawyer could look at. on that point, though, i think it's interesting, where we've gone now from, alex, is we've gone from this, all right, what exactly happened, to these real sort of questions surrounding the national security of this country, and how exactly these two individuals were able to go forward with what they ultimately accomplished. so this morning, sort of around that point, talking to folks related to the house homeland security committee, they say they really want to sort of get this investigation rolling on why these two individuals seem to have slipped through the u.s. intelligence community, especially after that information reported yesterday that the russians were concerned about the older broth
noth get his miranda rights. even though right now there's a public safety excmondtion thado going t in 48 hours and then he can >> that is what happened to the marathon bomber. he was a foreign citizen. he was read his miranda rights. muitics say the intelligence enm committee as to how the plot develops. bom he is now in super max. i r > officers and federal ey wthorities take him alive tis unlike his brother who perished in the fight they were trying hard becey wse they wanted to ay the questions as they go forward to speaght r > he is an american citie inn. he can't be sent to guantanamo a bay he can't be tried in a co military cowas rission. cases there are cases where americans were deemed enemy combatants. pl hosea padilla for one but in the case of him they have not found any link to an al qaeda linked group and therefore no court in the u.s. would necessarily rily uphold the president as r in commander-in-chief in designating him as enetinue ould combatant. this would be shaky i am told by experts.lleged even if he is deemed an enetinu he watant he has a right to an attorna
administration has agreed to delay a reading of his miranda rights under a public safety exemption, secretary of defense chuck hagel has not seen evidence to link the bombings to terror groups. scrutiny turns to the fbi who reportedly questioned the older brother tamerlan in 2011 at the request of a foreign government. this is so interesting. of russia. the fbi told the a.p. despite interviewing him and relatives they did not find any activity. the agency dropped the ball. richard, i wonder if there is going to be a lot of questions and maybe even hearings out of this or what comes to mind just knowing those basic facts? >> there probably will be hearings of the fbi whether it learned more or could have done more. critics say that is monday morning quarterbacking. it ought to be about what we were talking about, what can we do to prevent or identify young people who are radicalized and how did we respond and how what did we learn about lockdowns. as the military would say it ought not to just focus on fbi. it's much bigger and much broader. we have to learn a lot from this. the reason is this
. they didn't give a miranda warning so the aclu is shouting about that. and of course, well-known southern bell lindsey graham, why isn't he being treated as an enemy combatant? that one to me -- >> what about benghazi? >> shut up. >> stephanie: i'll always have benghazi. it is my terror. no. >> i would never go thirsty again. i'll have another mint julep thank you. >> stephanie: the legal expert i heard this weekend said this is a nonstarter to treat him as enemy combatants. did he a crime on u.s. soil. >> peter king said this. >> i believe -- should be portrayed as enemy combatants. senator mccain, senator graham, senator ayotte, there are so many questions unanswered so many potential links to terrorism here. the battlefield is now in the united states. i believe he is an enemy combatant. ultimately, he will be tried in a civilian court and the statements taken from him cannot be used against him in that trial. right now, the only links we have as much as chechnyan involvement in the islamic movement. are there other conspirators out there? where do they get the radicalization? >> he so
news tsarnaev will not be given a miranda warning when he's physically able to be interrogated after receiving medical treatment. instead, the official says the government will invoke a legal rule known as the public safety exception. that will allow investigators to question tsarnaev without first advising him of his right to remain silent and be afforded legal counsel. president obama used his weekly address today to praise law enforcement and those involved in tracking tsarnaev down. >> americans refused to be terrorized. ultimately, that's what we'll remember from this week. that's what will remain, the stories of heroism and kindness, resolve and resilience, generosity, and love. >> authorities caught up with the suspect after a tip from a watertown resident. he was hiding in a boat parked outside a home. he is now in a boston hospital and nbc's ron allen is joining me from there. ron, with a good afternoon to you, let's get the very latest on his condition. are you getting word from the hospital or are they staying somewhat silent on that? >> reporter: absolutely silent, alex.
dzhokhar tsarnaev to investigators, we do not know if that was before or after he received his miranda warnings or before or after he obtained counsel. that's an excellent point. one of the things we do know that he is saying apparently is that it was his brother tamerlan who was the mastermind here. is that something that could be helpful to his defense if he was merely following his brother? >> well, it will be helpful to his defense in the sense of mitigating the penalty that he might end up suffering. from what i've read and what i've seen, he's clearly as culpable as his brother. the videos that they picked up, and the statements that he made to the driver of the suv, all would indicate that he was a willing participant in this crime, and also the fact that he fled from the scene would further indicate his willingness to participate in this crime. however, any influence that he might have suffered from his brother, his brother's influence on him, may again go to mitigate any penalty that might be imposed upon him. whether he ends up getting the death penalty or whether he ends up
should be given their miranda rights. host: if he is not given his miranda rights then they cannot use anything he talks to them about in a trial should this case goes to trial. caller: that is correct. said everybody should be given their rights. even the people in gitmo. that is how america works. talkedhe president about the court procedure that will be following this arrest of dzokhar tsarnaev. [video clip] >> that american spirit means staying true to the unity that makes us strong. blogs,ng tweets and there is a temptation to latch on to any bit of information and sometimes jump to conclusions. when a tragedy like this happens, when public safety is at risk and the stakes are so high, it is important we do this right. that is why we have investigations. that is why we relentlessly gather the facts. that is why we have courts. that is why we take care not to rush to judgment. not about the motivation of these individuals. certainly not about entire groups of people. after all the one thing that makes america the greatest nation on earth, but also one thing that makes boston such a
decided not to read him miranda rights. he's not getting that. feds are envoking an exception to the rule and already the american civil liberties is slamming that decision . we must not waiver from the tried and true judicial system. we'll break down the complicated legal issuings. criminal defense attorney heather hanson is wherulse. >> you catch somebody who might have left a bomb somewhere . you want to keep them safe and question them right now for the public safety. >> that times passed hasn't it. >> the law was in 1984 . that is what it at that time. since then specifically after the times square bombing in 2010, >> attempted. >> the f.b.i. put out a memo that addresses the terrorist cases that they could expand the time in which they can question a suspect without reading them their rights. the question is how long of a time is there. we don't know the answer. >> was it not the letter of the law. but was it the intent of the law to stop an imminent threat against the people. for instance times square bomber had blown something out there and had blown something that the authorities
. they'll question him without evoking the miranda rights. >> that's a bit controversial. files chargesed perhaps as early as today. charged with using weapons of mass destruction, he could be facing the death sentence. . >> we have team coverage this morning and we start with abc's byron pitts in boston. good morning, byron. >> reporter: good morning, bianna. six local boston churches will hold an interfaith service later today. meantime, law enforcement is focused on suspect number two, here at beth israel hospital. this morning, police and federal agents are anxiously waiting to question the man who sparked nearly a weeklong man hunt. overnight this new video was released showing that final tense showdown, stun guns exploding as police move in to get dzhokhar tsarnaev. he's in serious but stable condition. his injuries preventing him from speaking. >> i think i and all of the law enforcement professionals are hoping for a host of reasons, that the suspect survives. because we have a million questions. >> reporter: questions like, was there anybody else involved? in his and his brother'
interrogation team is standing by to question him. they'll question him without reading him the miranda rights. invoking a rare public safety exception they only have a few minutes. >> 50 minutes approximately. this is a bit controversial. we'll see how they proceed with that. we're expecting files to be charged soon, perhaps as early as tuesday. he could be charged with using weapons of mass destruction. this 19-year-old could be facing the death sentence. several public defenders have offered to represent him. we'll see if it comes to that or if he hires his own attorney. >> we have team coverage this morning and we start with abc's byron pitts in boston. good morning, byron. >> reporter: good morning, bianna. six local boston churches will hold an interfaith service later today for the victims and survivors of monday's bombings. meantime, law enforcement is focused on suspect number two, here at beth israel hospital. this morning, police and federal agents are anxiously waiting to question the man who sparked nearly a week-long man hunt. that ended in a spray of bullets. overnight this new
. within 10 hours he was read his miranda rights. critics on capitol hill say the intelligence community was unable to fine him for information as to how the empty developed. the underwear bomber eventually convicted and in super max prison in colorado. harris? >> harris: federal authorities tried to sake him alive unlike his brother who published in thy were really trying hard. why is it difficult to get that designation as an enemy combatant? >> well, for one, he's an american citizen. by law he can't be sent to guantanamo bay, can't be tried in a military commission. there are cases where americans were deemed enemy combatants and tried to federal court. jose padilla for one. in the case of dzhokhar tsarnaev authorities have not found a link to an al-qaeda-linked group, and therefore no court in the u.s. would necessarily uphold the president as commander in chief as designating him an enemy combatant. legally this would be shaky, i'm told, by experts. even if the alleged bomber is deemed an enemy combatant, he still has a right to an attorney. he doesn't have to talk unless he wants
is to treat him as a criminal defendant. that means he must be read his miranda rights, notifying him of his right to remain silent. ed davis says the two bombing suspects were planning more attacks. >> we have reason to believe based upon the evidence that was found at that scene, the explosions, the explosive ordinance that was unexploded and the fire power that they had that they were going to attack other individuals. >> so far, police have not released any information about a possible motive. this is the first sunday since the boston marathon bombings and thousands around the bay area gathered at church services today to pray for the victims. we will have that part of the story in about 30 minutes. >>> you can find more on our website. there is a special tab on the front page with pictures and a slide show. log on to ktvu.com for our continuing coverage online. >> in san jose, police are looking for clues in two separate shootings, one involving a car filled with people. it happened outside of the fiesta nightclub and restaurant. an argument inside may have spilled out into the parking
. anytime we question him about his guilt or innocence, he is entitled to his miranda rights and a lawyer. to gathere the right intelligence from enemy combatants and a citizen can be an enemy combatant. host: the question we want to hear from you on its should the ballston bomber designated as an enemy combatant? screen.ers are on your chuck want to play inyou schumer, a democrat, responding to lindsey graham yesterday. [video clip] >> i think the good news is we don't need enemy combatants to get all the information we need out of him. the court that has ruled has allowed a lot of flexibility in the public safety exception before you mirandize someone. anytime there's a high value interrogation group, composed of the fbi, cia, and anyone else can question him without a lawyer in a secure situation and find out whatever they need, that can be used against him in a trial, but there's plenty of evidence. they don't need his confession. so i don't think we have to cross the line and say he should be an enemy combatant, which could be challenged in court. getting comments on our facebook pag
the 19-year-old his miranda rules. there is a right for his to remain silent and right to attorney if there is a continued threat to public safety. the aclu says that the public safety exception should be read narrowly and denying the rights is un-american. professor from uc berkeley says that the first questions that are posed will have to do with with the motive. >> first psychologically, and some wayward nut like columbine or some of the school shooters have been or what are the linkages, and what is this guy -- who has he been linked up to? >> most experts think that the case will be tried in federal court, and pros ecutors will mot likely charge him with use of weapons of mass destruction which could make the case eligible for capital punishment. coming up at 6:00 on the bay, thousands of runners are taking to the streets in london for a marathon and the first since monday's attacks. we will look at the security measures and how the runners are honoring the boston victims. >>> and scary moment as the body of a racecar goes flying into the stands. what officials say caused the
terrorism suspects without reading them miranda rights. the rule was created to question terrorists about other potential threats. senator carl leven says so far there's no connection between the suspect and terrorist groups. leven said to hold him under these circumstances would be contrary to our laws and jeopardize our effort to prosecute him. during interviews before suspects are read their rights is often not admissible during the trial. the issue on miranda rights is further complicated because the u.s. is a u.s. citizen. many of the rules cannot be used on americans. live in the newsroom, katie utehs. ktvu news. >>> people are in texas are being allowed in their homes. curfew is still in effect and there is limited water and electricity. many are still trying to learn the condition of family and friends hurt in the explosion. >> it's really hectic, but we are patient because we know the extent of damage on the other side. and we got friends and family that we don't know about over there. >> 14 people died in the fertilizer plant explosion, including 11 emergency responders. 200 m
yesterday applauding the suspension of miranda rights for the teenage suspect. he even suggested we haven't gone far enough. and advocated for labeling the suspect an enemy combatant. by defining this week's events as terrorism, we endow the violence with political meaning. when we call their homemade bombs but not adam lanza's bush master xm 15 rifle weapons of mass destruction, we sent out a trajectory for the prosecution when we focus on months that one suspect spent overseas rather than the years that both spent in the u.s. we assume a limited geography for the incubation of evil. so here we go. the crisis is over and the politics begin. folks, this is actually the most dangerous part. with me at the table today is msnbc contributor and georgetown university professor, michael eric dyson. valerie core, a writer and fi filmmak filmmaker. co-host of the cycle and robert pape, director of the project security and -- >> bb, let me start with you. what do you think happened this week? >> what i think happened is we had homegrown terrorism come to the united states. since 9/11, this is the
that they don't have to read him his miranda rights right away. as time passes, does the justification for that exception grow weaker? are they on ls strong ground? >> it sure does, because as you know, miranda rights are a bedrock constitutional principle. we all have the right to remain silent, t get an attorney and be advised of those rights. the public safety exemption is a very narrow exemption. there has to be an imminent threat to the public. it certainly seems less imminent. >> don't officials who say the terror is over, don't they kind of undercut that argument, and does it really matter in the end? >> this is certainly an argument that's going to be handed to this defendant's defense attorney when that time comes. there have been contradictory statements made that there is no public threat, there is no ticking bomb, thank goodness, apparently, based on what we know so far. so we're giving them an argument to use later. >> the issue is, the questioning that's permitted without miranda is very narrow in scope, correct? >> yes. it's about what the public threat is. it's not all
Search Results 0 to 30 of about 31